wizz0bang
Jul 23, 12:24 PM
I too am holding out hope for a 13" MBP. The 13" MB isn't powerful enough graphically and the 15" MBP is too big.
Besides, the aluminum is just stylin!
Besides, the aluminum is just stylin!
MarkyMark
Sep 15, 05:47 PM
Anyone think that a gig of RAM might be standard in the MBP?
It's already standard in the iMac, except the education model, and that's a "consumer" machine.
It's also standard in all the current MBPs, except the lowest model.
It's already standard in the iMac, except the education model, and that's a "consumer" machine.
It's also standard in all the current MBPs, except the lowest model.
Chris.L
Nov 6, 12:01 PM
Blah blah blah. Lack of AV software makes Macs very unattractive to business settings.
One of the barriers to integrating Macs into corporate and business environments is the lack of anti-virus tools. Yeah, you can dismiss this as FUD (and maybe there's some truth to that) but the fact remains--someday, one way or another, there will be a Mac OS X virus. I defy you to find one IT dept. in the country that wants to be caught off-guard by that. If you're going to have Macs in a business environment, the IT staff needs to know that they're protected in the event of an OS X virus outbreak. Whether any OS X viruses exist now or not and whether AV companies are trying to sell products with FUD is irrelevant in that context.
Those of you who want to see wider adoption of Macs in business environments ought to be happy to see this kind of thing showing up, regardless of whether you personally need it or not.
Agree completely.
And not just any old AV solution either something with a respected name and centrally managed. Something that will be a requirement for any half decent IT Dept/Corporate. How if I could just get a VMware client for OS X I could ditch my work HP. Oh, and a docking station...
I have had this installed since release day, and I can honestly say it hasn't slowed my MBP at all. I would actually forget it was there at all except for the little icon at the top.
One of the barriers to integrating Macs into corporate and business environments is the lack of anti-virus tools. Yeah, you can dismiss this as FUD (and maybe there's some truth to that) but the fact remains--someday, one way or another, there will be a Mac OS X virus. I defy you to find one IT dept. in the country that wants to be caught off-guard by that. If you're going to have Macs in a business environment, the IT staff needs to know that they're protected in the event of an OS X virus outbreak. Whether any OS X viruses exist now or not and whether AV companies are trying to sell products with FUD is irrelevant in that context.
Those of you who want to see wider adoption of Macs in business environments ought to be happy to see this kind of thing showing up, regardless of whether you personally need it or not.
Agree completely.
And not just any old AV solution either something with a respected name and centrally managed. Something that will be a requirement for any half decent IT Dept/Corporate. How if I could just get a VMware client for OS X I could ditch my work HP. Oh, and a docking station...
I have had this installed since release day, and I can honestly say it hasn't slowed my MBP at all. I would actually forget it was there at all except for the little icon at the top.
dwd3885
May 7, 10:10 AM
I'd rather use Google's Gmail, Calendar and Contacts than MobileMe. The only thing I can see mobileme useful for is iDisk and Back to My Mac.
jfmartin
Sep 11, 08:39 AM
I think Apple is going to show impress us big time tomorrow. Here is what will be announced.
* The iTunes Movie Store (iTunes 6.5 ou 7.0) with a few notable reworking of the iTunes Store to allow the integration of movies. I think if Apple is going to charge 10 buck per movie, it will add a few interesting twist to the 'DRM license' that goes with it and that would be part of the reason why only disney will be offered at first.. . The license is what makes Apple apart of the others... Studios will have to wait a see that the 'relaxed' DRM license Apple is proposing for 9.99$ is better than the others and people will realize that by buying 'in mass' so other Studios will come in... and leave Amazon Unbox... well, in a box !
* iPod nano second gen. Larger screen, new enclosure. 4, 6, 8 gigs. May be a few more surprise in the nano (radio ?, movies playable ? we don't on this one, isn't it ?)
* iPod Video full screen size
* all the iPods with a color screen will be declared iTunes Movie Store aware...
All this will be the first part of the show... then one more thing...
There will be a 'media center' kind of box that will tap Airport Express technology in it and that will tie with iTunes as the source of the movies in the living room... the main interface will be Frontrow 2.0.
I think this the exactly the kind of incremental approach is going to take once again tomorrow to bring us Movies in our living room. A well integrated approach that includes all the piece (iPod, iTunes, Macs, and PC)...
iTunes is definitively the new plateform for content delivery...
:rolleyes:
* The iTunes Movie Store (iTunes 6.5 ou 7.0) with a few notable reworking of the iTunes Store to allow the integration of movies. I think if Apple is going to charge 10 buck per movie, it will add a few interesting twist to the 'DRM license' that goes with it and that would be part of the reason why only disney will be offered at first.. . The license is what makes Apple apart of the others... Studios will have to wait a see that the 'relaxed' DRM license Apple is proposing for 9.99$ is better than the others and people will realize that by buying 'in mass' so other Studios will come in... and leave Amazon Unbox... well, in a box !
* iPod nano second gen. Larger screen, new enclosure. 4, 6, 8 gigs. May be a few more surprise in the nano (radio ?, movies playable ? we don't on this one, isn't it ?)
* iPod Video full screen size
* all the iPods with a color screen will be declared iTunes Movie Store aware...
All this will be the first part of the show... then one more thing...
There will be a 'media center' kind of box that will tap Airport Express technology in it and that will tie with iTunes as the source of the movies in the living room... the main interface will be Frontrow 2.0.
I think this the exactly the kind of incremental approach is going to take once again tomorrow to bring us Movies in our living room. A well integrated approach that includes all the piece (iPod, iTunes, Macs, and PC)...
iTunes is definitively the new plateform for content delivery...
:rolleyes:
hyperpasta
Aug 2, 11:42 AM
If you 'can't have cameras' dont use them. It doesnt matter if they are built in. And for people with dual monitors they will have... er... oh yeh two cameras :D
Well, I disagree with the first part of your post. However, I'm sure Apple won't care and go ahead anyway! :D
As for the two-camera thing... wasn't there a rumor sometime back about how Leopard could handle dual-camera chatting? It would use the monitor/camera that the chat window was on... move the chat window to the other display, and the other camera picks up the chat!
Well, I disagree with the first part of your post. However, I'm sure Apple won't care and go ahead anyway! :D
As for the two-camera thing... wasn't there a rumor sometime back about how Leopard could handle dual-camera chatting? It would use the monitor/camera that the chat window was on... move the chat window to the other display, and the other camera picks up the chat!
ChazUK
Mar 29, 12:48 PM
Wonderful, in that Files are encouraged to include photos, documents, etc. :mad:
"... access, retain, use and disclose ... as we determine is necessary ..."
No thanks.
Oh noes! :( (Isn't this standard legal mumbo jumbo?) :confused:
Access to Your Account and Content
You acknowledge and agree that Apple may access, use, preserve and/or disclose your account information and Content if legally required to do so or if we have a good faith belief that such access, use, disclosure, or preservation is reasonably necessary to: (a) comply with legal process or request; (b) enforce these TOS, including investigation of any potential violation thereof; (c) detect, prevent or otherwise address security, fraud or technical issues; or (d) protect the rights, property or safety of Apple, its users or the public as required or pemitted by law.
http://www.apple.com/legal/mobileme/en/terms.html
"... access, retain, use and disclose ... as we determine is necessary ..."
No thanks.
Oh noes! :( (Isn't this standard legal mumbo jumbo?) :confused:
Access to Your Account and Content
You acknowledge and agree that Apple may access, use, preserve and/or disclose your account information and Content if legally required to do so or if we have a good faith belief that such access, use, disclosure, or preservation is reasonably necessary to: (a) comply with legal process or request; (b) enforce these TOS, including investigation of any potential violation thereof; (c) detect, prevent or otherwise address security, fraud or technical issues; or (d) protect the rights, property or safety of Apple, its users or the public as required or pemitted by law.
http://www.apple.com/legal/mobileme/en/terms.html
bedifferent
Mar 31, 09:43 AM
You are mixing up badly. That example shows that humans who can read, are trained to rely on what they read almost blindly rather than identifying a color. This means, Apples choice of making the icons grey makes it indeed easier to recognize as there is one less distraction. An even stronger conclusion would be: Leave the icons away completely, because reading is much faster.
Icons were useful in the 1990s, when the number of pixels on the screen was small. Nowadays, just use text, it is way better. Look at websites, icons are used very sparsely. Text is the way to go.
Hmmm perhaps I misinterpretted it (which is embarrassing as I was a psychobiology major lol). I know my mistake now. The full study demonstrated that for individuals who are more visually oriented (rely upon visual cues as opposed to verbal and mathematical) they process the color and not the word more readily. That's what I get for a quick reference to Wiki lol.
So I suppose it depends on each individual and their inherent (whether natural or nurtured) ability to process that information. Personally I test off the charts for spatial reasoning (and my math sucks lol) so I respond faster and more efficiently to reasonably colored graphical cues. For those who don't the grey is great, just give us a choice! Lol
I'm sure CandyBar will be updated for Lion theming. I have a folder with all the finder etc icons I use for apps and system icons (even icons for the System Prefence pane such as the newer display icon)including a black glass dock and icons with simple yet detailed in colors of blue, black, white, etc that I simply drag and drop into their respective resources folder. I even made color replacements for the Finder sidebar in the various three sizes (16, 18 and 32 for small, medium and large) yet in every resource folder for sidebar system icons I find nothing has changed. Oh well. It was fun to learn some new underpinnings of Lion.
Lol...
So where exactly did I personally insult you?
Perhaps I misread your tone. Since comments between others on MacRumors almost always become increasingly personal and hostile I may have read your comment with a condescending tone (although the "lol" above isn't helping ;) ). If that wasn't the case then I sincerely apologize :)
Icons were useful in the 1990s, when the number of pixels on the screen was small. Nowadays, just use text, it is way better. Look at websites, icons are used very sparsely. Text is the way to go.
Hmmm perhaps I misinterpretted it (which is embarrassing as I was a psychobiology major lol). I know my mistake now. The full study demonstrated that for individuals who are more visually oriented (rely upon visual cues as opposed to verbal and mathematical) they process the color and not the word more readily. That's what I get for a quick reference to Wiki lol.
So I suppose it depends on each individual and their inherent (whether natural or nurtured) ability to process that information. Personally I test off the charts for spatial reasoning (and my math sucks lol) so I respond faster and more efficiently to reasonably colored graphical cues. For those who don't the grey is great, just give us a choice! Lol
I'm sure CandyBar will be updated for Lion theming. I have a folder with all the finder etc icons I use for apps and system icons (even icons for the System Prefence pane such as the newer display icon)including a black glass dock and icons with simple yet detailed in colors of blue, black, white, etc that I simply drag and drop into their respective resources folder. I even made color replacements for the Finder sidebar in the various three sizes (16, 18 and 32 for small, medium and large) yet in every resource folder for sidebar system icons I find nothing has changed. Oh well. It was fun to learn some new underpinnings of Lion.
Lol...
So where exactly did I personally insult you?
Perhaps I misread your tone. Since comments between others on MacRumors almost always become increasingly personal and hostile I may have read your comment with a condescending tone (although the "lol" above isn't helping ;) ). If that wasn't the case then I sincerely apologize :)
d0minick
Mar 28, 10:14 AM
Why because it doesn't have a dual core processor, 1GB of RAM
LOL that is exactly why. Plus OS improvements, better notifications, FM radio, at least hspa+. These are things that i would love. I love my I4, but it has a lot of room for growth and it does need to stay up with the competition. And to say otherwise, IMO, means stagnant technology because if Apple does not compete, every one gets complacent.
LOL that is exactly why. Plus OS improvements, better notifications, FM radio, at least hspa+. These are things that i would love. I love my I4, but it has a lot of room for growth and it does need to stay up with the competition. And to say otherwise, IMO, means stagnant technology because if Apple does not compete, every one gets complacent.
chuckles:)
May 7, 10:37 AM
I used to use mobileme for hosting, email, iDisk and photo sharing, but i've outgrown all of them. I won't be renewing this december. Now i just have to make sure i don't lose my iPhone.
jhall527
Mar 29, 09:58 AM
Okay, nice, guys. This is MacRumors, not AmazonRumors. Who gives a crap about Amazon? Move along now.
Of course it's not AmazonRumors.com but just because this article isn't specifically related to Apple does not mean it has no place on an Apple rumor site. There is a lot you can take away from this article in regard to what Apple has in store for the future based on their competition.
It drives me crazy when people dimiss articles on here just because they don't have Apple written all over them. That doesn't mean they are irrelevant in regard to apple rumors.
Of course it's not AmazonRumors.com but just because this article isn't specifically related to Apple does not mean it has no place on an Apple rumor site. There is a lot you can take away from this article in regard to what Apple has in store for the future based on their competition.
It drives me crazy when people dimiss articles on here just because they don't have Apple written all over them. That doesn't mean they are irrelevant in regard to apple rumors.
toddybody
Apr 24, 09:10 AM
No, he's talking about the drawing that shows something like a 24" iMac than can be swivelled down on your desktop from it's normal upright position to a slightly inclined position (like an iPad on it's new triangle smart cover back rest) and then you lift your arms up and use the 24" screen like an iPad.
Seems such a bad idea.
I like the idea of a giant touch screen in the surface of a desk, for some uses, but I'm really unsure about swinging an iMac screen around and sticking your hands all over it.
This image here: http://www.alltouchtablet.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/touchscreen-apple-imac.jpg
Yeah, neat idea conceptually...but in practice I would personally rather not have my iMac look like a school bus window:p
Seems such a bad idea.
I like the idea of a giant touch screen in the surface of a desk, for some uses, but I'm really unsure about swinging an iMac screen around and sticking your hands all over it.
This image here: http://www.alltouchtablet.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/touchscreen-apple-imac.jpg
Yeah, neat idea conceptually...but in practice I would personally rather not have my iMac look like a school bus window:p
funwithamar
Apr 20, 01:52 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/04/20/iphone-5-shipping-in-september-with-faster-processor-similar-look/)
http://images.macrumors.com/article/2011/04/18/104037-iphone_4_side_shot.jpg
Reuters reports (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/20/us-apple-iphone-idUSTRE73J0OE20110420) that the next generation iPhone will start production in July and likely shipping in September.Reuters cites three people "familiar with the matter". The brief news article also claims that the new iPhone will have a faster processor but "will look largely similar to the current iPhone 4". No other details are provided, but the timeline is in line with recent rumors about the iPhone 5.
The faster processor will likely be the Dual-Core A5 processor that was introduced alongside the iPad.
Article Link: iPhone 5 Shipping in September with Faster Processor, Similar Look (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/04/20/iphone-5-shipping-in-september-with-faster-processor-similar-look/)
useless update without i 4" screen up i feel ....
im jealous of other 4" phone models..... please apple bring out a 4 " model;)
http://images.macrumors.com/article/2011/04/18/104037-iphone_4_side_shot.jpg
Reuters reports (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/20/us-apple-iphone-idUSTRE73J0OE20110420) that the next generation iPhone will start production in July and likely shipping in September.Reuters cites three people "familiar with the matter". The brief news article also claims that the new iPhone will have a faster processor but "will look largely similar to the current iPhone 4". No other details are provided, but the timeline is in line with recent rumors about the iPhone 5.
The faster processor will likely be the Dual-Core A5 processor that was introduced alongside the iPad.
Article Link: iPhone 5 Shipping in September with Faster Processor, Similar Look (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/04/20/iphone-5-shipping-in-september-with-faster-processor-similar-look/)
useless update without i 4" screen up i feel ....
im jealous of other 4" phone models..... please apple bring out a 4 " model;)
darrens
Aug 4, 08:34 PM
How many times does it have to be repeated? Adobe came out immediately after the Intel transition was announced that they would have an Apple UB version released simultaneously with the release of CS3.
They didn't want to slow development of CS3 for the Mac. CS2 was just released and a UB version would have taken significant effort for a very small market share. Since the only benefit would be to intel mac users which didn't even exist at the time.
Soon, probably first quarter a UB version of CS3 will appear about the sametime that the mac intel user base reaches a relavent market size.
The company that really deserves criticism is intuit. They recently released quicken 2007 and it was not UB. They were releasing a new product and they chose to ignore intel Mac users. Makes you wonder if they are going to stay in the mac market at all. Maybe in the future they will just recommend running parallel and windows, to use quicken on an intel mac.
Who cares for Quicken - it's not performance critical. It probably wasn't worth the effort given the gains probaby wouldn't even be noticeable.
I'd think that all Apple's Pro apps market to the same small intel mac userbase, and they're done. They weren't cross platform so I'd think they weren't easy to port.
We all know Adobe's reasons - but still, two years is a long time.
They didn't want to slow development of CS3 for the Mac. CS2 was just released and a UB version would have taken significant effort for a very small market share. Since the only benefit would be to intel mac users which didn't even exist at the time.
Soon, probably first quarter a UB version of CS3 will appear about the sametime that the mac intel user base reaches a relavent market size.
The company that really deserves criticism is intuit. They recently released quicken 2007 and it was not UB. They were releasing a new product and they chose to ignore intel Mac users. Makes you wonder if they are going to stay in the mac market at all. Maybe in the future they will just recommend running parallel and windows, to use quicken on an intel mac.
Who cares for Quicken - it's not performance critical. It probably wasn't worth the effort given the gains probaby wouldn't even be noticeable.
I'd think that all Apple's Pro apps market to the same small intel mac userbase, and they're done. They weren't cross platform so I'd think they weren't easy to port.
We all know Adobe's reasons - but still, two years is a long time.
pmz
May 4, 03:14 PM
As long as you can burn a DVD or USB key from it, it should be a good way of distribution. It seem a bit reckless, however, not to have a offline backup around. Sometimes even Time Machine screws up.
The entire idea of restoring from a Time Machine backup has always been illogical to me.
If Time Machine backs up everything, then it backs up whatever problems you had that resulted in your need for restore.
Time Machine has limited real use, and its basically limited to accidentally deleting things.
The entire idea of restoring from a Time Machine backup has always been illogical to me.
If Time Machine backs up everything, then it backs up whatever problems you had that resulted in your need for restore.
Time Machine has limited real use, and its basically limited to accidentally deleting things.
caliguy
Nov 22, 01:34 AM
palms os is severely outdated
the only thing they have going for them is the abundance of software out
i own a palm and will ditch it when something pda, osx feel comes from apple
if apple makes their phone centered on a PDA and Confrencing rather than
"its an ipod and a phone"
i think they will gain some substantial ground
having the ability to use the pda phone as an ipod would not be out of the question but solely a ipod phone ? i think they would be cutting their profits to a certain age group of potential buyers
Yeah exactly, I totally agree. I've never been turned on by the iPhone/iPod 2-in-1 rumours. To me, iLife integration and conferencing is way more important. I actually prefer they keep the two (iPod+iPhone) separate. I don't want my music listening to be disturbed by calls.
the only thing they have going for them is the abundance of software out
i own a palm and will ditch it when something pda, osx feel comes from apple
if apple makes their phone centered on a PDA and Confrencing rather than
"its an ipod and a phone"
i think they will gain some substantial ground
having the ability to use the pda phone as an ipod would not be out of the question but solely a ipod phone ? i think they would be cutting their profits to a certain age group of potential buyers
Yeah exactly, I totally agree. I've never been turned on by the iPhone/iPod 2-in-1 rumours. To me, iLife integration and conferencing is way more important. I actually prefer they keep the two (iPod+iPhone) separate. I don't want my music listening to be disturbed by calls.
l008com
Jul 29, 09:09 PM
If apple could get one of the phone carriers to go with the free song plan, maybe one of the smaller ones like Alltel, they could single handedly turn Alltel into a major player. Alltel and Apple would both win. And it probably wouldn't be long before the crappy carriers decided to carry the "ipod phone" with free song loading anyway.
I'm a big fan of the Motorola E815. Best for just talking, and great for doing more. Of course verizon disables most of the great features so you can pay verizon $5 a month for the same abilities the phone was already capable of.
Alternately, Apple could do something really big like buy one of the companies like Alltel, or create some sort of major partnership where Apple has a say in the service, not just selling the phones. Apple could be the provider, and your phone could come with free (minus airtime) Safari Jr for web browsing any time :-) That would be fricken sweet.
I'm a big fan of the Motorola E815. Best for just talking, and great for doing more. Of course verizon disables most of the great features so you can pay verizon $5 a month for the same abilities the phone was already capable of.
Alternately, Apple could do something really big like buy one of the companies like Alltel, or create some sort of major partnership where Apple has a say in the service, not just selling the phones. Apple could be the provider, and your phone could come with free (minus airtime) Safari Jr for web browsing any time :-) That would be fricken sweet.
ravenvii
May 4, 08:55 PM
CURRENT KNOWN MAP:
http://web.me.com/ravenvii/map/known.png
STATS:
1. Rosius: Level 2, 2 HP, 2 AP
2. Dante: Level 2, 2 HP, 2 AP
3. Beatrice: Level 2, 2 HP, 2 AP
4. Rhon: Level 2, 2 HP, 2 AP
5. Wilmer: Level 1, 1 HP, 1 AP
6. Loras: Level 2, 2 HP, 2 AP
7. Jorah: Level 2, 2 HP, 2 AP
What went down, numerically speaking, during the Goblin battle: the Goblin was level 1, and hence has 1 HP and 1 AP. The heroes, at level 1 and combined, have 7 HP and AP. The Goblin, since it has 1 AP, hit Wilmer for one point (via random.org), depleting his 1 HP, killing him. The heroes hit the Goblin for 7 AP, bringing the Goblin's HP to -6 points, killing him.
ROUND OVER
http://web.me.com/ravenvii/map/known.png
STATS:
1. Rosius: Level 2, 2 HP, 2 AP
2. Dante: Level 2, 2 HP, 2 AP
3. Beatrice: Level 2, 2 HP, 2 AP
4. Rhon: Level 2, 2 HP, 2 AP
5. Wilmer: Level 1, 1 HP, 1 AP
6. Loras: Level 2, 2 HP, 2 AP
7. Jorah: Level 2, 2 HP, 2 AP
What went down, numerically speaking, during the Goblin battle: the Goblin was level 1, and hence has 1 HP and 1 AP. The heroes, at level 1 and combined, have 7 HP and AP. The Goblin, since it has 1 AP, hit Wilmer for one point (via random.org), depleting his 1 HP, killing him. The heroes hit the Goblin for 7 AP, bringing the Goblin's HP to -6 points, killing him.
ROUND OVER
ZbHRP
May 4, 08:08 PM
I'd rather go to a store and get Lion which will probably only take a hour, rather than waiting a days for a 58GB+ download to finish. (No, I'm not buying it online, Apple's courier here is very slow and unreliable when buying small boxed items (OS X, iPods, etc.) at the Apple Store.)
Frogurt
Sep 16, 11:49 AM
New macbook pros will be made of tungsten maybe? :p
That would be great, and after a year of using them we can all enter strongman competitions. ;)
That would be great, and after a year of using them we can all enter strongman competitions. ;)
finkmacunix
Apr 23, 05:23 PM
Am I the only one who loves looking at high res high quality icons? I feel a bit sad over here. :p
So do I� *Hypnotized By giant App Store icon*
So do I� *Hypnotized By giant App Store icon*
Full of Win
Apr 23, 04:30 PM
Who do I make the check payable to?
DavidCar
Jul 29, 09:24 PM
Haven't we heard before from this "tech-unsavvy friend, who is regularly hired by Apple to do marketing photo shoots", maybe sometime in the past year or two? The line sounds familiar. I don't recall if the previous bit of information from that source was true or not.
cdallen
Mar 30, 06:13 AM
Why? It�s just a reference to the battleground / spectator status of the decolonized countries during the cold war. (The "second world" being the now-defunct Soviet Bloc.)
From the almighty Wikipedia:
"French demographer, anthropologist and historian Alfred Sauvy, in an article published in the French magazine L'Observateur, August 14, 1952, coined the term Third World, referring to countries that were unaligned with either the Communist Soviet bloc or the Capitalist NATO bloc during the Cold War. His usage was a reference to the Third Estate, the commoners of France who, before and during the French Revolution, opposed priests and nobles, who composed the First Estate and Second Estate, respectively. "
Anyone who needs to quote wikipedia shouldn't be allowed to contribute!
Now thats a FACT!
From the almighty Wikipedia:
"French demographer, anthropologist and historian Alfred Sauvy, in an article published in the French magazine L'Observateur, August 14, 1952, coined the term Third World, referring to countries that were unaligned with either the Communist Soviet bloc or the Capitalist NATO bloc during the Cold War. His usage was a reference to the Third Estate, the commoners of France who, before and during the French Revolution, opposed priests and nobles, who composed the First Estate and Second Estate, respectively. "
Anyone who needs to quote wikipedia shouldn't be allowed to contribute!
Now thats a FACT!